Fast GPU, not enough CPU power to keep up?

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Peter_Hucker
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Re: Fast GPU, not enough CPU power to keep up?

Post by Peter_Hucker »

Alex_Atkin wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:55 pmI think its fair to consider PPD a measure of performance, as why else does it exist if its not weighted against which projects are more urgent or more complex?
That's the problem. Today you might get x PPD, tomorrow you get 1.2x PPD. Did your computer speed up, or were the projects more urgent, or were they more suited to your particular card? And since a task takes a number of hours, you might have 6 finishing today and 7 tomorrow, it doesn't mean you did more.
Alex_Atkin wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:55 pmThe points system exists entirely to give an element of competitiveness to contributing our energy, so there has to be a logic to how they are dishing out those points.
Over a long period, it means how much good you've done. But as above, you can't use it short term.
Alex_Atkin wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:55 pmBut that's the thing, were effectively contributing money here, so I'm not going to spend as much on a CPU job as a GPU job, if its less useful. If they are of equal importance then the points should reflect that, as its the only measure we have.
I assume they all need to be done, and some cannot be done on GPU. So if everyone said we'll do GPU only because they're faster, some things would never be completed.
Alex_Atkin wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:55 pmI get that CPU jobs are still important (as in if nobody ran them it would be a huge detriment to certain kinds of research), but is it important enough to slow down the GPU jobs to do them, given the much higher cost per WU in real-cash money.
Mine don't slow the GPU down, not sure why yours do. The GPU task only needs 1 core free to keep it running full speed. A program running on a different core shouldn't cause problems unless there's something up with your system. I use Windows 11 on a variety of old and new hardware and never see this problem. The only exception is some RAM intensive tasks (Climate Prediction) on a PC without dual channel RAM, the RAM gets bogged down and everything goes slower.
Alex_Atkin wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:55 pmI don't have money to burn, I only fold when it contributes to heating the house
If electricity is too expensive, consider solar power. You can make your own power 10 times cheaper than buying it from the grid. You're not giving them a profit or paying for the power losses and maintainance of miles of wires. But don't sell excess to the grid, here anyway they pay you a tenth of what they sell it back to you for! Get some LiFePO4 batteries and store it.
muziqaz wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 3:26 pmSo if you leave 1c or 2 threads to a GPU, you should not see any increased TPF most of the time
What is TPF?
Joe_H
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Re: Fast GPU, not enough CPU power to keep up?

Post by Joe_H »

Peter_Hucker wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 10:31 pm What is TPF?
Time per Frame or 1% of the WU. Historically it could mean a different amount that 1% of completion, TPF has hung around since the early days of F@h.
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Peter_Hucker
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Re: Fast GPU, not enough CPU power to keep up?

Post by Peter_Hucker »

Since WUs vary in size, surely using TPF to judge how fast your card is running is pointless?
Joe_H
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Re: Fast GPU, not enough CPU power to keep up?

Post by Joe_H »

You would be comparing the TPF on the same WU with varying amounts of other activity going on. Indirectly it also indicates the PPD when you add in the information of base points. There is a bonus calculator - http://www.linuxforge.net/bonuscalc2.php - just need the TPF and project number.
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Peter_Hucker
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Re: Fast GPU, not enough CPU power to keep up?

Post by Peter_Hucker »

I find it much easier to watch the temperature of the card, and/or it's % usage in MSI afterburner:

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Alex_Atkin
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Re: Fast GPU, not enough CPU power to keep up?

Post by Alex_Atkin »

Peter_Hucker wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 10:31 pm If electricity is too expensive, consider solar power. You can make your own power 10 times cheaper than buying it from the grid. You're not giving them a profit or paying for the power losses and maintainance of miles of wires. But don't sell excess to the grid, here anyway they pay you a tenth of what they sell it back to you for! Get some LiFePO4 batteries and store it.
House is rented, can't add panels or I would have done years ago as I'd save a fortune on AC use in the summer.
Peter_Hucker wrote: Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:51 am I find it much easier to watch the temperature of the card, and/or it's % usage in MSI afterburner:

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My guess is GPU usage just shows how full the GPU pipeline is, not the actual amount of silicon being used. As you can have two completely different WUs causing different power consumption, but both 100% usage.

Power consumption is not a good measure either as you don't know how much of the power budget the CUDA cores alone can use.

On a 4090 especially you never get close to the power limit and I often see the GPU usage jumping between 85-95% as its constantly going into no load limit, suggesting perhaps the CPU isn't feeding the data fast enough to keep up. Though I don't see a marked difference between a 5950X and a 5800X3D on time to complete, so its possibly some other bottleneck. Its really hard to tell given NVIDIA drivers will peg the CPU at 100% regardless of actual usage, due to how it works.
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Peter_Hucker
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Re: Fast GPU, not enough CPU power to keep up?

Post by Peter_Hucker »

It depends where you put the panels, if you can place them not to interfere with the structure of the house, perhaps just sat on top of the flat roof garage? Or at the bottom of the garden somewhere? Best not to rent anyway, buy a bit of land in the middle of nowhere, build a log cabin on it, and you have loads of space for solar, or if you're lucky hydro!

Usually if you get 100% usage, it's as fast as the workunit will go. It may be cooler because it's maxing out one part of the card and not another. Not much you can do apart from run two different programs at once you know use different parts of the GPU. The trouble with Folding is it's too polite, even set to full power, it always moves to the side for other programs. So if you try to run Boinc and Folding, Folding drops to almost zero.

What I do is stop all the CPU cores, see what the GPU usage is. Then up the cores until it has impact.
Alex_Atkin
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Re: Fast GPU, not enough CPU power to keep up?

Post by Alex_Atkin »

The interesting thing I found is I had to disable PBO on my 5950X due to instability and suddenly CPU folding is having little impact on GPU. :/

Makes me wonder if I was hitting a memory bandwidth/latency limit of some sort?

I built the system when 3600MT RAM was still a bit flaky so only bought 3200MT, I wonder if its an sync with infinity fabric problem?
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Peter_Hucker
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Re: Fast GPU, not enough CPU power to keep up?

Post by Peter_Hucker »

RAM can be difficult. This board (or CPU? It's a 3900XT) went a bit silly (much crashing) when I put more than 2 sticks in. I had to lower the clock speed to 2/3rds. But I found I could lower (which is faster) the CAS by the same amount, so the memory is the same speed. Just the MB/CPU/VRM didn't like the fast clock.

BTW, the more sticks the better. Not only do you get dual channel, but there's interleaving too. Technically I'm using all 4 at once, since it asks the 1st pair for data, then can ask the second pair for some other data while it waits for the many clock cycles for the first pair to respond. The data is stored like striping on a RAID set of disks. Alternate bytes on each stick. Although it can't access 4 at once, it acts like it does.
Alex_Atkin
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Re: Fast GPU, not enough CPU power to keep up?

Post by Alex_Atkin »

From what I can gather the lockups are not a memory problem, its because I have an early 5950X which has quite a few reports of having an iffy voltage curve, so can lockup when idle. So far if I don't CPU fold it crashes randomly, if I DO CPU fold its been perfectly stable.

It seems worse since I switched from an X570 to a B550 board though, possibly some tweak ASUS did on the X570 as they are known to fiddle with voltages.
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Peter_Hucker
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Re: Fast GPU, not enough CPU power to keep up?

Post by Peter_Hucker »

I assume if you can find exactly what the problem is, you could play with the voltages in the BIOS.
GarageMonster1962
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Re: Fast GPU, not enough CPU power to keep up?

Post by GarageMonster1962 »

My problem is a little different but the same. I'm a new poster here but have been folding fo a few years now. I have a ASUS PROART PC, it has a modest cpu and gpu(running windows 11). I have the web control settings set for medium but the cpu usage is about 75% or more and the gpu usage is over 90%. Now if i set the settings in f@h web control to low then the cpu usage goes to about 15% and the gpu usage drops to 0%. I tried to use microslops ai to help me find a solution but it just open up the device manager and gives me cryptic instructions that are way over my head. I'm not a rocket surgeon. I do pretty well with my linux workstation. Trying to find a solution in the search here is like trying to find a needle in a huge haystack. I guess my search foo is lacking. I'm 61 now and the memory is not what it once was. Please can anyone give me a simple solution before my graphics card burns up. My f@h client name is KentThomas. Sincerely GarageMonster
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Re: Fast GPU, not enough CPU power to keep up?

Post by Joe_H »

Welcome to the folding support forum.
GarageMonster1962 wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2023 6:46 am My problem is a little different but the same.
From some things you mention such as using the web control settings of medium and light it sounds like you are using the full release client version 7 and not the public beta version 8. The GPU stopping folding on the light setting is consistent with how the v7 web control works.

Using v7 you would need to use the advanced control app FAHControl to reduce the CPU usage. That would leave the slider set on Medium or High, and then you would edit the CPU slot configuration and set the number of CPU threads to a number between 1 and one less than the maximum number of threads supported by your CPU. The default value is -1 which leaves how many CPU threads are used to the slider position.

Alternatively you could set your current CPU and GPU WUs to finish and install the v8.1.8 beta client. That uses a web based control only, the configuration settings allow you to enable or disable folding on your GPU(s) and the number of CPU threads available for folding can be set directly.
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GarageMonster1962
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Re: Fast GPU, not enough CPU power to keep up?

Post by GarageMonster1962 »

Hey thank you Joe for a rapid reply. I'm worried my graphics card will die. I will try to upgrade to the version 8 client now. Many thanks again, GarageMonster.
GarageMonster1962
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Re: Fast GPU, not enough CPU power to keep up?

Post by GarageMonster1962 »

I have installed the V8 beta client software in the window PC but now it won't do anything. I fear i have forgotten my password to my account and until I enter that it will not start. But now I don't know how I can get my password as I was a fool and didn't write it down anywhere. Can you help me with this Joe, I would be forever grateful to you. GarageMonster
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