Folding Forum

About 5 pages ago, I made this post: Take a break or inject new ideas

bruce wrote:

ChristianVirtual wrote:....
And dear mods; please keep it open ... in general this discussion is not bad to have.

I support that idea. For those of you who have posted several times and done an adequate job of expressing your point of view, repeating yourself again won't be useful, so take a break. I'll leave it open for new ideas from folks who have not posted.

Now I have to ask myself how much of those 5 pages consists of people repeating themselves and how much is actual new ideas from folks who had not posted. Yes, it has been a mixture, of course, but it seems to be migrating more and more toward repetition. Apparently some folks believe that by filling up 5 more pages with comments that have already been made actually accomplishes something that will change the eventual outcome. The "broken record" approach just frustrates me and is more likely to alienate me than to convert me to your way of thinking (no matter which side you're supporting). I doubt that's a unique reaction.

I called for a time-out and for a while, I got one. Then what happened?

I believe making a prioritized list of the specific suggestions to help ease the situation, would be a good thing. If we do nothing, I expect nothing will be done to help the situation.

Instead of just complaining, shouldn't we get to work to help identify and give suggestions to help fix the problem?

bruce wrote:I called for a time-out and for a while, I got one. Then what happened?

No-one from PG said a word. Not one. I don't buy the "holiday" story. Scientific research isn't a 9-5. Really, Dr Pande can't stop by and say "I will be looking at this as soon as I return on the 2nd and I will answer you all" ? Or "this is the way things are, like it or quit"? How about a "Happy Holidays"?

In the absence of anything from someone other than a FF moderator, is it any wonder that donors are venting. We have nothing better to do - obviously - so we vent. I don't see that it is your role to stop what is at least cathartic and possibly constructive from happening on the official forum for this project.

HaloJones wrote:

bruce wrote:I called for a time-out and for a while, I got one. Then what happened?

No-one from PG said a word. Not one. I don't buy the "holiday" story. Scientific research isn't a 9-5. Really, Dr Pande can't stop by and say "I will be looking at this as soon as I return on the 2nd and I will answer you all" ? Or "this is the way things are, like it or quit"? How about a "Happy Holidays"?

In the absence of anything from someone other than a FF moderator, is it any wonder that donors are venting. We have nothing better to do - obviously - so we vent. I don't see that it is your role to stop what is at least cathartic and possibly constructive from happening on the official forum for this project.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=25411&start=75#p253960

Heiko

bruce wrote:Now I have to ask myself how much of those 5 pages consists of people repeating themselves and how much is actual new ideas from folks who had not posted. Yes, it has been a mixture, of course, but it seems to be migrating more and more toward repetition. Apparently some folks believe that by filling up 5 more pages with comments that have already been made actually accomplishes something that will change the eventual outcome. The "broken record" approach just frustrates me and is more likely to alienate me than to convert me to your way of thinking (no matter which side you're supporting). I doubt that's a unique reaction.

I called for a time-out and for a while, I got one. Then what happened?

I agree with HaloJones, people tend to repeat themselves when they don't fill they are being listened to.

And to get response from those that sound more like apologists for PG instead of PG themselves just doesn't do it.

PG needs to be engaging not distancing themselves from the donors.

@Heiko, one post on page 6 doesn't do it either. What about the other 17 pages without a response?

bruce wrote: I called for a time-out and for a while, I got one. Then what happened?

Hmm... I'm going to hazard a guess. Exercising the right to free speech until the thread is locked? (Which of course would infuriate many and the repercussions of that act would reverberate throughout the community in such a was as to lend credence to a part of the problem already postulated as 'lack of a two-way communication'.)

Silence has a tendency to exacerbate a problem, it is the nature of humans to fill in the blanks with whatever bogeyman one wishes to rationalize away the lack of communication. When this rationalization happens you further increase the risk of donor ire. We are seeing this now here and on other forums.

The timing of FAH's announcement may have been poor timing due to the holidays or even be even construed by some as to be timed close to the holidays to let situation 'flame out'

Think White House and late Friday 'announcements' and you'll understand what I'm saying. Not a great way to communicate in my mind. Imagine if you will a White House press conference where the reporters all gather around the Press Secretary and ask questions and are met with stony silence. (Although I have to admit it would be amusing in that particular scenario.)

heikosch wrote:

HaloJones wrote:

bruce wrote:I called for a time-out and for a while, I got one. Then what happened?

No-one from PG said a word. Not one. I don't buy the "holiday" story. Scientific research isn't a 9-5. Really, Dr Pande can't stop by and say "I will be looking at this as soon as I return on the 2nd and I will answer you all" ? Or "this is the way things are, like it or quit"? How about a "Happy Holidays"?

In the absence of anything from someone other than a FF moderator, is it any wonder that donors are venting. We have nothing better to do - obviously - so we vent. I don't see that it is your role to stop what is at least cathartic and possibly constructive from happening on the official forum for this project.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=25411&start=75#p253960

Heiko

Eleven days ago. A post that didn't actually tell us very much or address the concerns raised in this thread. It is my belief that a dialogue requires more than one side. He doesn't want to post again? Just say so. At least it would show some respect. Silence doesn't.

But OK, since the last post has been raised, let me address this comment from that post:

Vijay said this "Equal work for us means the same calculation performed at a given time (i.e. we don't expect points awarded now to be identical to points 12 months ago). Our general philosophy is that we reward points based on the science done (not the Watts expended) and give the donors the choice of how they would like to perform that work (i.e. SMP vs GPU). Our thinking here is that donors know best how they want to run FAH and we should leave it to them to optimize whatever they want to, if they can do the same science."

So if that is true, Core15 GPU units do very little science. SMP units are doing half as much science as they were a year or so ago. Tell me Vijay, if you give me only SMP and Core15 units to do, why do you think I will feel that is a good use of my hardware and electricity?

HaloJones wrote:

bruce wrote:I called for a time-out and for a while, I got one. Then what happened?

No-one from PG said a word. Not one. I don't buy the "holiday" story. Scientific research isn't a 9-5. Really, Dr Pande can't stop by and say "I will be looking at this as soon as I return on the 2nd and I will answer you all" ? Or "this is the way things are, like it or quit"? How about a "Happy Holidays"?

In the absence of anything from someone other than a FF moderator, is it any wonder that donors are venting. We have nothing better to do - obviously - so we vent. I don't see that it is your role to stop what is at least cathartic and possibly constructive from happening on the official forum for this project.

Well said !

Bruce do what you got to do.I will do what I think is right not fold 200 + wu"s a month.Untell I see a post from panda that says why , I will leave every thing powered down but for 2 days a month.This gets old real fast when you spend $1k and what you spent it on is dead 3 months later. For me money is not found on a tree
I wish I had a a answer to what could be done But I do not. well with out a little talk back and forth. Forum mods are just that nothing more then that mods.
So they CAN do what they want but it is up to me if I want to go there.

kerryd wrote:Bruce do what you got to do.

The only thing I feel I've got to do is ask for a more Peaceful forum.

I'm doing the same thing you're doing. I'm simply pointing out that I'm not being listened to (suprise, suprise) and that dialogue is a two way street. No matter what I ACTUALLY say, folks will pop up on the forum and call me derogatory names -- never mind that I'm actually being polite to everyone, no matter what point of view they express.

... Just watch it happen again.

bruce wrote:

kerryd wrote:Bruce do what you got to do.

The only thing I feel I've got to do is ask for a more Peaceful forum.

I'm doing the same thing you're doing. I'm simply pointing out that I'm not being listened to (suprise, suprise) and that dialogue is a two way street. No matter what I ACTUALLY say, folks will pop up on the forum and call me derogatory names -- never mind that I'm actually being polite to everyone, no matter what point of view they express.

... Just watch it happen again.

Everybody has a right to there own opinion including bruce, and he is correct here there are a few stones being cast his way and he is most likely correct that there will be a few more. One thing we all need to remember is to keep it constructive it is ok to vent but lets not get personal, that will solve nothing. While bruce does have a responsibility here at the FF in reality he has no more control or influence over PG than any of us do. He has said over and over throughout the years I have been here that he has no more influence over PG than anybody else.
He is guilty of making an educated guess and reading between the lines from time to time the same as myself and many others are. And yes from time to time he can be a little quick to the draw in his admin duties. (Which angers people myself included) I would not want his job as admin, I can not say I would be any better at it than he is, we are all human and make mistakes. Vijay has said he is going to be hiring a PR person which in my opinion is a good thing.

I do not think I would want to be in Vijay shoes right at this moment either, the announcement was made right before the holidays which is a time for being with family and being filled with joy and laughter, I am pretty sure he has been following this thread and I doubt he has had an exceptionally bright holiday season. And quite frankly I am a bit saddened by the fact that I did not wait until after the holidays on some of my post. I am sure Vijay will post something soon, I have spoken to him from time to time and know he actually does care about the program and the donors. He has already said he looks at the points system differently than allot of us do, he looks at it as a = pay for = science and in that aspect the points are correct there may be consequences that are not the best but that is up to PG.

Bigadv = Greatest amount of science done much larger strings and quick returns are valued
GPU = A large amount of science done and much shorter time frame than smp may do smp type work in future
SMP = slowest form of folding lesser value but still needed

Kasson announced there were going to be bigadv adjustments and followed up with this.

ata that helped inform where to place the new thresholds:
~5% of active FAH machines with SMP>2 are at least 24 cores
~4% of active FAH machines with SMP>2 are at least 32 cores

Adjusting deadlines to match new hardware requirements will be a necessity. This is something we will have to calibrate carefully, and we unfortunately cannot state what those deadlines will be now. Our goal will be to allow reasonable 24-core and 32-core machines to make the deadlines. So the bottom line is that there will be deadline changes effective Feb 17 and Apr 17, precise nature TBD based on calibration experiments.

The only problem I see here is there should have been a time line road map set up the last time this happened and there most definitely needs to be one set up now for future adjustments a 1 to 2 year map would be nice and updated as each milestone is reached.

1/1/2014 bigadv requirements will be reviewed precise nature TBD based on current need and calibration experiments
1/1/2014 smp requirements will be reviewed precise nature TBD based on current need and calibration experiments
1/1/2014 GPU requirements will be reviewed precise nature TBD based on current need and calibration experiments

7/1/2014 bigadv requirements will be reviewed precise nature TBD based on current need and calibration experiments
etc.
etc.

There are some problems right now that need to be dealt with PR, and some points problems with smp. And if there is a oversupply of smp WU's, I believe that if they are going to try and solve it with just a bigadv requirement change, that will not work, the points will need to be raise on smp to make it worth while to run them. Many of us said that the last time, but I do not know that there is actually an oversupply of smp WU's. Vijay will have to answer that and decide what to do about it.

Anyway peoples lets keep it civil go ahead and vent it is good to get it out, but remember there is no need to attack a person that does not see eye to eye with you. And the mods have been pretty good this time around I think some have listened to us over time. And no there is no reason I see to close the thread.

Fully agree, "Bruce bashing" is not needed or helpful. A discussion on better communication, expectation on both sides of the assignment servers, roadmaps, midterm plans, point system etc is needed and healthy for the project.

Well, again just for perspective:
Bruce attempts to explain and "defend" the current system. When we are discussing failures, or flaws in the current system, this can become counterproductive.
Attaching personal blame is likewise counterproductive. What needs to be addressed is the structure of the system.

I found it highly ironic that 7im in this thread found it beneficial to "back-channel" his suggestion for reform in closed PM, rather than share it with those who are affected by the result here in the forum.

Isn't that exactly what caused the problem.

Obviously, there was some conversation, some discussion over changing the requirement for BA over the last two years.
However, the first donors hear of it is when the decision is already made and set to be implemented in two months.

Now, say whatever 7im suggests is implemented, and say some group of folders is adversely affected.
Will it come as any surprise that they will be offended by being purposely blocked from not only participating, but even following the decision making process?

The structure of the system is so flawed that any result is suspect before arrival.

Now, I have said this many times. The great irony is that I have said it 10x times more than is reflected in the forum record. Some excellent threads, with detailed and exhaustive analysis of QRB, BA points, and general communication(by other donors) simply do not exist. These threads were systematically re-categorized as "anything goes" and were then deleted.
I have always found this purging of history greatly disturbing. It distorts the record of donor requests and complaints. It also showed a great disdain and condescension toward donors who invested considerable amounts of time looking at point details and trying to make constructive suggestions on how to reform the system.

To what extent Bruce is responsible for this sanitation of FF history, I can't say.
However, I can say it was effective in purging from the institutional memory these lengthy and detailed debates.

Peace? At what cost?

I know I don't have the energy to reconstruct the suggestions,the charts detailing point fits, the comments from donors who have left, after making exactly the statements that are being made in this thread:

"I invested in FOLDING based on the current information"
"Now I find that I "should have known" that "beta,or advanced, or experimental" means that changes can occur without notice."
Really?
This is not how any business is run. Businesses get sued on a regular basis for misleading their investors(even when this is merely a failure to update). Good intentions are not an acceptable excuse and neither are boiler-plate warnings.
Epic is being sued for misleading investors about the launch of B4. Of course they intended on shipping on time, Of course, they intended to ship a relatively bug free product. However, they had to know there were problems some time between starting the project 2 years ago and launch. Their failure to update investors leaves them liable to civil suit.

ow I have to ask myself how much of those 5 pages consists of people repeating themselves and how much is actual new ideas from folks who had not posted. Yes, it has been a mixture, of course, but it seems to be migrating more and more toward repetition.

Yes, nothing I wrote above is a new idea or a new analogy.
It is the same call for taking responsibility I have been making since the failure of GPU1.
Has the continuous repetition resulted in the desired change in attitude by PG?

Not yet, but I am nothing if not consistent.

mdk777 wrote:Well, again just for perspective:
Bruce attempts to explain and "defend" the current system. When we are discussing failures, or flaws in the current system, this can become counterproductive.
Attaching personal blame is likewise counterproductive. What needs to be addressed is the structure of the system.

Why shouldn't bruce, or any other user, be allowed to have and voice a positive opinion?

Surely any debate about 'flaws' and 'failures' should allow comment from people who feel like there 'aren't any?'.