Any solid reasons for running v6?

[Rattledagger]

and much more easily accessible.

"easily accessible" is just the thing v7 is NOT as far as information about config-options goes, if uncle fuzzy hadn't mentioned where was something like pause-on-start wouldn't have known it existed at all.

BTW, apparently where is this forum-post about various config-options and how to add them, but unfortunately it's hidden-away in the archive-part of these forums meaning it's unlikely most users finds this info.

[Jesse_V]

and much more easily accessible.

"easily accessible" is just the thing v7 is NOT as far as information about config-options goes, if uncle fuzzy hadn't mentioned where was something like pause-on-start wouldn't have known it existed at all.

BTW, apparently where is this forum-post about various config-options and how to add them, but unfortunately it's hidden-away in the archive-part of these forums meaning it's unlikely most users finds this info.

Thanks for the reminder on that.

This thread has drifted a bit, but summarizing the on-topic and non-countered reasons provided thus far, it looks like the solid reasons are:
1. Pause on start and other technical configurations can be easier in v6.
2. RoomateoYo pointed out that multiple separate clients can make more technical management easier.
3. For some it may install better on Ubuntu, though last I heard V7 installs just fine.
4. It's easier to upload any finished results without downloading new WUs.

Those seem to be really technical or specialty reasons. I think V7 is an excellent choice almost all the time, but I'll concede that for those special reasons v6 can sometimes be a better choice.

[art_l_j_PlanetAMD64]

Something that I thought would be very helpful, is that if you select 'Expert' mode in FAHControl (v7.2.9), and then click on 'Configure' and select the 'Expert' tab, that all of the configuration options would be shown in the "Extra client options" area, even if they were at the default value. For example:
pause-on-start
max-packet-size
next-unit-percentage
(and all the rest)

This would be almost like having a "mini-guide" to all of the configuration options right there in front of you. Even if you didn't know what a particular option did, at least you would know that it existed, and you could then search for it in the documentation to see what it was for. I think this would be a great help to the 'Expert' users, and it shouldn't be too much effort to implement.

[bruce]

Something that I thought would be very helpful, is that if you select 'Expert' mode in FAHControl (v7.2.9), and then click on 'Configure' and select the 'Expert' tab, that all of the configuration options would be shown in the "Extra client options" area, even if they were at the default value. For example:
pause-on-start
max-packet-size
next-unit-percentage
(and all the rest)

This would be almost like having a "mini-guide" to all of the configuration options right there in front of you. Even if you didn't know what a particular option did, at least you would know that it existed, and you could then search for it in the documentation to see what it was for. I think this would be a great help to the 'Expert' users, and it shouldn't be too much effort to implement.

Though I do NOT recommend you permanently change the verbosity setting in FAHControl from the default value of 3, if you temporarily set it to 5 and restart the client, the log will start with a list of all of the settings. Save that log somewhere or print it and you'll have your list.

[Jesse_V]

I think this would be a great help to the 'Expert' users, and it shouldn't be too much effort to implement.

IIRC, this was requested before, and I think the answer was that it was intentionally left out. Some of those options have the possibility to really mess things up, both client-side and for the scientific integrity of the project. Yes, I can see how it can be useful, but you have to balance that against the possibility that someone is going to get in there and choose some risky option without understanding the responsibilities involved. I guess the devs decided that it's better to learn the flags/options through reading the documentation.

[P5-133XL]

I really do not believe that a drop-down box listing all the choices is a good idea. There are too many people that think they know enough to modify undocumented settings. Even if they are documented, it would be a support nightmare.

As an example, why not research the possible GROMAC's core options. Make some modifications (for example, gromac's clustering options) and when folding no longer works ask some questions here as to why. You are going to see a large amount of emptiness in that thread because no one is going to know what is going on. No one will assume you played with those options unless you tell them what you did and then only real answer will be undo it. But then you wouldn't want to do that, for you want the clustering to work...

[art_l_j_PlanetAMD64]

Thanks, bruce and Jesse, that makes a lot of sense, and it is relatively simple to create a log file with all of the options listed. Maybe this could be done automatically one time during installation? The 'Expert' user could read the documentation and find out about the file with all of the options in it, and if he or she is going to go that far into the documentation, they would already be deep enough into it to 'get into trouble' as Jesse said. Having the file available wouldn't make it any more (or less) likely that they would mess something up.

[ford316]

For the ones that don't want the program to start when windows starts... ever heard of programs that let you pick what starts up and don't when windows starts??? If not now ya know there is some out there and they work fairly good...

[bruce]

...it is relatively simple to create a log file with all of the options listed. Maybe this could be done automatically one time during installation? The 'Expert' user could read the documentation and find out about the file with all of the options in it, and if he or she is going to go that far into the documentation, they would already be deep enough into it to 'get into trouble' as Jesse said. Having the file available wouldn't make it any more (or less) likely that they would mess something up.

So you're asking for the client to automatically print the documentation, not just the list. That's just the point. Everybody thinks they are an expert, no matter how little they know about V7 and almost everybody is too lazy to read the documentation. The whole point in having three settings is to serve as a warning: If you think your an expert and you get into trouble, you very well may be on-your-own.

P5-133XL's comment (above) is very accurate. When offering support, it's not easy to judge what a person actually knows and how many inaccurate "facts" they think they know. Rarely do they give an accurate self-assessment (except for a few newbies will start out saying they know very little and need a lot of help). Rarely does anyone tell us what settings they've changed until are asked or what happened just before the problem started.

Suppose you see a setting called "folding-speed" that has a default setting of "normal" (There is no such setting.) I'll bet that every person here would try changing it to "fast" without reading any documentation. After their computer crashes, most will probably set it back to "normal" or try setting it to "slow." Most will then come here or to their team forum and complain that their computer crashed. Very, very few will have actually searched for documentation before asking for help.

Since this is a fictional situation based on pretty good assumptions about human nature, I might as well write fictional documentation to go with it. It says The setting "fast" will crash any overclocked computer and overheat most laptops. Use this setting with extreme care and at your own risk.

(Oh, and of course they didn't volunteer that their system was overclocked.)

There is one real exception: Most of the long-time members of the beta team have figured out what information is important and how to give an accurate report of the kind of event that that's going to be needed.

[art_l_j_PlanetAMD64]

Well, certainly as both you and P5-133XL said, there are options that are best hidden away deep in the documentation, so the casual "expert" will not readily stumble across them. That is a very good point. And perhaps there are some options that should not even be in the documentation that "regular" folders can access, and that would only be communicated by PM (or other method) to folders judged by the PTB to be truly qualified experts.

Also, the developers have done a fantastic job on v7.2.9, it is light-years ahead of where FAH was just a few years ago when I started folding. The Windows SMP and GPU clients are completely effortless to set up, which was definitely not the case (especially for multiple GPU clients) before.

But there are other options like pause-on-start and next-unit-percentage where a little more visibility would not be a bad thing. Sure, you can say "RTFM", but the suggestions made here by myself and others, good or bad, are made after our own experiences with the new client, in the spirit of making it even better and more user-friendly. Sure, point out when an idea is dumb (as you just did), but also recognize that continuing to make FAH even more user-friendly (as you (PG) are already doing) will help the growth of the FAH community.

[bruce]

Three things:
The idea, itself, is not "Dumb." You're absolutely right that there are some options like pause-on-start and Next-Unit-Percentage which should be advertised to the "Advanced" user. They're almost self-documenting and even a "Novice" user probably wouldn't get himself into trouble. Personally, I'd put them as a check-box somewhere in the Configure function but my opinions on such matters don't necessarily agree with the Development team -- and even if we do agree, there are enhancement tickets covering such issues which eventually will probably find their way into a future FahControl.

Second: it takes a careful hand to classify all of the options as "Novice" / "Advanced" / "Expert" and I'm not sure that's the best way to protect people anyway. It's just too easy to choose "Expert" and to have people try options that they don't understand.

Third: In V6, the "beta" option used to be a big secret and protecting people by obscurity is no protection at all. The "secret" was widely shared on many of the team forums. V7 development has been much more open than V6 ever was. The tickets associated with the development of V7 are opened to public scrutiny. The FAHViewer and the FAHControl are open source, which is also a major change. Again, protection by obscurity isn't part of the plan. Either something is open or it's not open, and when it's not open, there has to be a good reason for it.

[Rattledagger]

So you're asking for the client to automatically print the documentation, not just the list. That's just the point. Everybody thinks they are an expert, no matter how little they know about V7 and almost everybody is too lazy to read the documentation.

Well, if you've been staring on the client for 10+ minutes and it's only showing "download", what's you've supposted to do except change from "novice"?

As for reading a 29-page install-guide, are you seriously expecting new FAH-users to read all of this? In my opinion the guide is atleast 20 pages too long, especially since all users is steered to this guide (atleast on windows) if follows the 3-step-approach of FAH's homepage.

[k1wi]

Are we talking about http://folding.stanford.edu/English/WinGuide ? It is true that it is considerably longer than the v6 install guide, but I guess it is doing more (i.e. multiple slots).

It's sounding to me like a reason for using v6 over v7 is that documentation for v6 is *better/easier/clearer/(use your term of choice)/more familiar?*

My opinion is if people don't read the documentation then the documentation needs to be looked at/fixed.

It's also my own opinion that each install method (novice/advanced/expert) should be on its own page as it clearly separates each point, with a dynamic menu outlining the page hierarchy to the side. The v7 Client User's Guide' has a nice menu but it would be great if it maintained its position on the screen when scrolling and wasn't accompanied by a huge page of text to its left. It's not unique to v7 though, because it is also, to me, an annoying feature of v6 support and pretty much every help page on the site. (no offense intended, it is what it is based on the generous/dedicated support of those committed enough to maintain it).

Perhaps there should be a 'quick start page' where everything below the novice install guide is removed and links to separate pages for advanced and expert guides and un-instillation are provided? Perhaps un-install could be kept.

I don't know how to approach my final two thoughts:

I guess I am uneasy about the current 'not hiding information, but not making it easy to find'. I appreciate that bruce has identified it in his first paragraph in post viewtopic.php?p=233015#p233015, but I'll throw my two cents in anyway. I feel it makes it harder for those who consider themselves experts in FAH, but not expert in making changes to v7. In order to make a simple change, do I need to be expertly knowledgeable across the entire v7 client or is there a way for me to quickly find the specific answer I'm looking for? Obfuscating all options makes the latter difficult.

The final thing I'm not so sure on is installation guides being relied on for post installation changes... I'm a fan of there be a manual that is separate to the installation guide and in the format I alluded to previously with short concise sub-pages (as opposed to one very long page with everything on it). However, with v7, the two are more or less spread over two completely different sites, fah-web.stanford.edu/projects/FAHClient/ and http://folding.stanford.edu/English/. It's one thing to provide documentation, but it's another to spread things across two sites! This is probably my main gripe with the current state of v7. Switching between two sites with very different designs adds complexity to the brain, which is already tired from having to manually parse long pages with large amounts of (for the specific user looking for a specific problem) superfluous information.

[Rattledagger]

Are we talking about http://folding.stanford.edu/English/WinGuide ?

Yes.

It's also my own opinion that each install method (novice/advanced/expert) should be on its own page as it clearly separates each point, with a dynamic menu outlining the page hierarchy to the side.

(snip)

Perhaps there should be a 'quick start page' where everything below the novice install guide is removed and links to separate pages for advanced and expert guides and un-instillation are provided? Perhaps un-install could be kept.

Un-installation has nothing to do in an installation-guide.

As for having separate guides for novice/advanced, you don't really need separate guides, since with a couple changes to installer everything "advanced" can easily be collected on a single page. Example, add a page after adding user-info, displaying the "default" choises and a button called "advanced" with text something like "if needs to change any of these default options". In the install-guide, you'll only need one extra page to document the advanced options, you don't need a full guide for a single page.

Another alternative, don't display the default info but instead more informal page, maybe something like "Installer has enough info, to finish installation click 'finish installation'. To change user-info click 'back'. To change some advanced options, click 'advanced'."

BTW, since GPU-crunching and service-installation is mutually exclusive (*), the current installation-order for "advanced" is in my opion wrong since users should choose the "mode" first. With a mode where GPU is included service-installation should preferably not be a choise at all, or a warning saying GPU will be disabled. Oh, and if user does choose "only GPU" and installer accepts service-installation, the installer should send user back to choise of mode.

Everything about "Adding slots" and "Changing options" should not be part of the install-guide, except something along these lines:
"Further information after installation:
For info about the various configuration-options in client, click this config-guide.
For more info about FAH v7, click this link-to-development-site (or something).
For uninstallation, click this uninstall-guide."

Opening-up either the config-guide or another web-page then users in the client hits F1 or clicks on the help-menu-choise would also be a good idea.


(*): someone still running XP can install as a service and crunch on GPU, so keeping service-mode available under XP would be an advantage. Majority of new users on the other hand will not run XP and additionally new GPU's like atleast Amd 7xxx doesn't have OpenCL-drivers under XP meaning XP isn't an option for FAH-users so fully disabling service-mode for GPU-choise wouldn't really be a large problem.

[Nathan_P]

It just works for linux SMP folding without any dependancy nonsense.
For a 4xx or 5xx card it just works no white list nonsense
For smp folding it just works
For uni proc it just works.

V7 is great, i use it and i like the ease of setup - ON WINDOWS - but i have been around 4 years, had lots of different hardware and have not had any issues setting up v6, and long as it runs all the cores why should i, change for the sake of change for an existing user makes no sense