Steady Decline? :-(

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7im
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Re: Steady Decline? :-(

Post by 7im »

road-runner wrote:@ 7im I have no idea what any of those are except seti, most folks I know want to cure cancer, aids, or other diseases instead of looking for aliens which is one of the reasons I also do folding...
I knew Rosetta, but not Einstein. I just picked sample projects with larger participation.

Einstein - Einstein@Home uses computer time donated by computer owners all over the world to process data from gravitational wave detectors. Studies phenomenon on a galactic scale.
Rosetta - Used to determined the 3-dimensional shapes of proteins in research that may ultimately lead to finding cures for some major human diseases. The flip side of the coin to FAH.
SETI - The search for communication signals not of earthly origin. (life from other planets)
road-runner wrote:With that being said here is the WCG RAC graph, the one most folks go to when they leave...
Not really sure how you'd backup that statement, but you're welcome to your opinion. ;)
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Rattledagger
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Re: Steady Decline? :-(

Post by Rattledagger »

7im wrote:@ road-runner, how do they define "total credit" ?

Is that the same as active clients? Or is that a measure of production, like FLOPS? Or is that just total WU count that climbs like in every other project. ;)
Total credit is total credit, the sum of all credit, just like a users "total score" in FAH should be their total score...

Both total credit and total users will increase, but total computers can actually go down, due to users can merge same computer, or delete computers not active any longer.
Let's try this... RAC charts for a few of the top Boinc projects (last 60 days) (recent average credits)

Einstein@home, trending down, but appears to be recoverying...

Rosetta, starting to decline...

SETI, declining...

All BOINC Combined, toppped out, and appears to be declining...


My crystal ball broke a while back, so I can't read minds any more. This, to me, looks like summer coming. But who knows? It's all just guesswork. ;)
Hmm, it looks like the graphs has changed since earlier to-day, probably as part of the most resent stats-updates...

But anyway, specifically for the Einstein@home-increase. The BOINC Pentathlon is currently active, some of the largest BOINC-teams is taking part and is running 5 different projects, each for 5 days over 14 days total time (so some overlap). The 1st. project that's now finished running was Einstein@home. For the same reason, Rosetta@home is likely to get a boost from Friday.

A 60-day overlook is really too short to give any good indication of trends, http://stats.kwsn.net/ and http://www.allprojectstats.com/ is better choises for RAC with respective 1 year and 2+ years. From these, it seems there's always a slow-down in May, for so a low-point in June or July, for so increasing again during fall & winter.

Now, the total active users & computers would also be interesting to see, but while the 1st. listed stats-site does display this info, unfortunately they're showing the total-counts in the same graphs, so the active user-info is basically useless.
So, the only stats-site that seems to display more than 2 months is http://boinc.netsoft-online.com/e107_pl ... p_home.php that shows the last 3 months active users/computers.
It seems all projects currently has a decrease, but most likely this is the normal seasonal variation.

BTW, the total counts across whole BOINC isn't the best to look at, since there's large variations in credit/hour between the different projects, and a couple of the projects gives much higher credit/hour than other projects. An outage in such a project will give a large impact in RAC, but minimal in how many is actually active.

Any comparison with FAH to see if similar trends or not is more difficult, since AFAIK there's no indication of how many computers is really hiding behind the reported "active cpu"-counts...
7im
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Re: Steady Decline? :-(

Post by 7im »

Rattledagger wrote:
Any comparison with FAH to see if similar trends or not is more difficult, since AFAIK there's no indication of how many computers is really hiding behind the reported "active cpu"-counts...
Yes, and no. Active CPUs are easy, they are actual active fah clients. Actual computer counts don't apply any more since multi-core and multi-gpu folding was added.
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Re: Steady Decline? :-(

Post by hootis »

7im wrote:Why is Pande Group always to blame? They post a lot of things, and no one ever reads it. Is that really a communication problem?
I read it.... :roll:
Things yet to materialize.
Rattledagger
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Re: Steady Decline? :-(

Post by Rattledagger »

7im wrote:Yes, and no. Active CPUs are easy, they are actual active fah clients. Actual computer counts don't apply any more since multi-core and multi-gpu folding was added.
Well, I can't tell if a decrease in #active FAH-clients is due to users moving from running 2x or 4x single-core-clients to a single smp-client, or for that matter switching from running 2x smp-4-clients to a single smp-8 client. Or, if the decrease instead is users just stopping to run FAH... :|

Can you tell the difference from http://fah-web.stanford.edu/cgi-bin/mai ... pe=osstats or for that matter from another FAH-page?
k1wi
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Re: Steady Decline? :-(

Post by k1wi »

TBH, this whole debate highlights why statistics is clear as mud & why you shouldn't just look @ graphs ;)

Using the available data, it is possible to interpret the information any way you want, taking into the strengths and weaknesses of each method of measurement.

For example, measuring based on TFLOPs is inaccurate; a FLOP doesn't always = a FLOP, & what happens if due to a major break-through algorithm, Stanford magically halves the number of flops required to compute each step of a simulation ?

Alternatively, to measure according to PPD over a long period of time is often fraught by the bonus system or say a new instruction set which improves performance, but not on the benchmarking machine. Also, and I'm not accusing Stanford of this, but it is possible for projects to 'inflate' points over time, which could give the impression of greater computing power even when actual performance is fixed. Thus measuring by points is an estimation of production, and not definitive.

Measure by WU completed is confounded by different sized WUs. Could we measure performance by the number of publications released per year? Perhaps by the release of new methods of simulation!

As Rattledagger said, measuring by clients/active CPUs is difficult because you can have 1x 8 thread SMP client use the exact same resource of 8x classic clients, or 2x 4 thread SMP clients. You could hypothetically drop clients by a quarter, and yet still be using the exact same resources.

What would be interesting from analysis point of view here, would be to study the effect of key points in time. For example; was the a marked drop in SMP clients when VMware Player 3.0.0 (with its ability to run 8 threads at once) came on the market. Was there a drop in linux SMP clients when bigadv work units became available? In both these cases, you could suggest that client consolidation occurred. I believe they didn't have the information in the past; but my understanding is they now poll the client as to how many cores are made available? This would allow Stanford to track the average # of cores per SMP client, for example.

The introduction of Bonus Points/A3 cores would be another time point of interest; did this result in another consolidation of SMP clients, did it result in a shift from Linux -> Windows (which would result in better efficiency). Did the introduction of Bonus Points also result in a decrease in the number of ATI GPUs folding, as it increased the turn around time of the SMP client & thus decreased the PPD by an even greater factor.

Following on from the above analysis, extra, more difficult analysis could be done; perhaps we could analyse the role of increasing power costs by analysing the average cost of electricity over time in the US with US production. Perhaps we could analyse production cycles - the cyclical effect of seasons & thus ambient temperature on production; how much does Northen Hemisphere production fluctuate with the weather? Of interest to me; how does the economic cycle impact on point production?

To me, this sort of analysis would be of more interest than simply looking at any given graph; how much can we attribute to things we can identify? This is different to just saying oh look - this graph is trending downwards. Of course, that may just be the statistician in me; my bias towards looking @ key points in time stems, I admit, from my academic training (human/economic/political geography). Perhaps my training just makes me look for things that can be turned into publications ;)
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7im
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Re: Steady Decline? :-(

Post by 7im »

Rattledagger wrote:
7im wrote:Yes, and no. Active CPUs are easy, they are actual active fah clients. Actual computer counts don't apply any more since multi-core and multi-gpu folding was added.
Well, I can't tell if a decrease in #active FAH-clients is due to users moving from running 2x or 4x single-core-clients to a single smp-client, or for that matter switching from running 2x smp-4-clients to a single smp-8 client. Or, if the decrease instead is users just stopping to run FAH... :|

Can you tell the difference from http://fah-web.stanford.edu/cgi-bin/mai ... pe=osstats or for that matter from another FAH-page?
Thank you for making my point again. The original poster, or anyone else for that matter, can't claim to know the full reasons behind why there is a decline in the number of active clients. We can only guess the most likely reasons. And since the reasons you list for being confused seem to match my reasons for the lower numbers, it appears we agree. Participation probably isn't going down, just that people moving from multiple SMP clients to single SMP clients because single clients earn more points. And summer, and economy, and everything else. And with the economy as it is, people are more likely just shutting down instead of moving to other projects. ;)
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Slash_2CPU
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Re: Steady Decline? :-(

Post by Slash_2CPU »

Most DC projects see a drop in clients focusing around college breaks.

You also typically see a small dip when North America gets a heatwave, and a small rise for the first few cold snaps.

School's out, and summer heat is coming.
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Rattledagger
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Re: Steady Decline? :-(

Post by Rattledagger »

7im wrote:Thank you for making my point again. The original poster, or anyone else for that matter, can't claim to know the full reasons behind why there is a decline in the number of active clients. We can only guess the most likely reasons. And since the reasons you list for being confused seem to match my reasons for the lower numbers, it appears we agree. Participation probably isn't going down, just that people moving from multiple SMP clients to single SMP clients because single clients earn more points. And summer, and economy, and everything else. And with the economy as it is, people are more likely just shutting down instead of moving to other projects. ;)
The thread-starter didn't do it, but I specifically said "Any comparison with FAH to see if similar trends...". Since under BOINC there's a single client per computer, any decrease in active clients is directly tied to computers stopping to run. A maybe 10% decrease in active clients during the summer wouldn't likely points to any problems, while a 50% decrease would point to something's wrong.

For FAH on the other hand, is a 10% drop in active clients due to the summer, or due to users just switching to smp-clients? Would example a 50% drop in active clients points to a huge problem, or is it just the majority of the dual/quad-owners has switched to smp-clients and therefore a positive thing?

It's the same way if you tries to compare RAC and PPD, looking on long-term trends on http://www.allprojectstats.com/ it's easy to see Rosetta@home has roughly 1.7x increase the last 2.7 years while WCG has a 5.7x increase, and this is directly linked to increased production (from more computers and new faster compurs and so on). For FAH on the other hand, would example a 3x increase in PPD mean the production has increased more than Rosetta but less than WCG? Due to the changes in FAH's bonus-system, there's actually no way to know how much FAH has increased, if you're looking only on cpu-clients even with an increase in PPD from these clients, the actual production from cpu-clients can have decreased.
7im
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Re: Steady Decline? :-(

Post by 7im »

Yes, the fah data will always be more nebulous, if not only because of the many more types of platforms supported by fah. But then the BOINC numbers aren't always 1 to 1 either. If I retire 1 P4 and 1 dual core computer, and then add a quad core replacement, the computer count goes down, but the production goes way up. Not that different from fah. ;)
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