Suggestion: download new WU before current one finishes

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7im
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Re: Suggestion: download new WU before current one finishes

Post by 7im »

jrweiss wrote:
7im wrote:As for just swapping the order of the download/upload, that goes back to what I said about making changes. No change is a small change where reprogramming 400,000 clients, and 25+ servers is concerned.
I have to disagree here.

They would only be reprogramming a dozen or so clients, and I suspect the source code logic in that segment of the client is identical for all of them. The number of servers is totally irrelevant. All it takes is to move the initial download connection to just prior to the initial upload connection. All the remaining logic remains intact, including the timing for waits between subsequent attempts of either action.

As it is, an unsuccessful upload attempt can delay the download of the next WU for hours, and the start of the next WU in the server queue is not at all affected by the WU results awaiting upload. We know this because there will eventually be a download attempt even if the upload does not complete.

Go ahead and disagree.

How well does this simple switch work with 200,000 clients using the old way, and 200,000 clients using the new way during the change over? ;) How does this count against you for -bigadv bonuses? :e?:

How do you stop an unstable client from just downloading all the WUs, and never uploading any? (Yes, I know this can be prevented, with more coding and checks.) So you see, there is a lot more to think through than simply flipping a switch, or swapping a load order.
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tear
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Re: Suggestion: download new WU before current one finishes

Post by tear »

7im wrote:
jrweiss wrote:
7im wrote:As for just swapping the order of the download/upload, that goes back to what I said about making changes. No change is a small change where reprogramming 400,000 clients, and 25+ servers is concerned.
I have to disagree here.

They would only be reprogramming a dozen or so clients, and I suspect the source code logic in that segment of the client is identical for all of them. The number of servers is totally irrelevant. All it takes is to move the initial download connection to just prior to the initial upload connection. All the remaining logic remains intact, including the timing for waits between subsequent attempts of either action.

As it is, an unsuccessful upload attempt can delay the download of the next WU for hours, and the start of the next WU in the server queue is not at all affected by the WU results awaiting upload. We know this because there will eventually be a download attempt even if the upload does not complete.

Go ahead and disagree.

How well does this simple switch work with 200,000 clients using the old way, and 200,000 clients using the new way during the change over? ;) How does this count against you for -bigadv bonuses? :e?:

How do you stop an unstable client from just downloading all the WUs, and never uploading any? (Yes, I know this can be prevented, with more coding and checks.) So you see, there is a lot more to think through than simply flipping a switch, or swapping a load order.
Being a naysayer isn't very hard, is it, 7im? Don't answer that.

"Autosend" uploads already are asynchronous. It shouldn't be too hard
to "de-synchronize" uploads after WU completion. Besides, there's
a notable group of beta testers. They certainly are capable of providing
quality feedback on any bug fix or feature PG comes up with.

Anyway, until (if ever) that happens I'm sticking with langouste; check
it out folks -- viewtopic.php?f=14&t=11615&p=113412


Cheers,
tear
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jrweiss
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Re: Suggestion: download new WU before current one finishes

Post by jrweiss »

7im wrote:Go ahead and disagree.

How well does this simple switch work with 200,000 clients using the old way, and 200,000 clients using the new way during the change over? ;) How does this count against you for -bigadv bonuses? :e?:

How do you stop an unstable client from just downloading all the WUs, and never uploading any? (Yes, I know this can be prevented, with more coding and checks.) So you see, there is a lot more to think through than simply flipping a switch, or swapping a load order.
The servers don't care, so it doesn't matter how many machines are doing it which way. As I noted before, we often download new WUs before uploading results RIGHT NOW! After [too many] failed upload attempts, a new WU is downloaded in MANY cases. It doesn't seem to upset the servers at all!

It doesn't count for or against me for -bigadv bonuses, because I don't do -bigadv WUs. What is the issue with them?

Right now unstable clients tend to hang and stop, rather than attempt to download more WUs. Besides, EUEs do NOT generate a FINISHED_UNIT message and would not trigger the [early] download!

Nothing you have presented is a showstopper; some of it already happens, some of it is not a valid issue at all.
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Re: Suggestion: download new WU before current one finishes

Post by Zagen30 »

jrweiss wrote: It doesn't count for or against me for -bigadv bonuses, because I don't do -bigadv WUs. What is the issue with them?
AFAIK, the bonus points are awarded based on a continuous function of the time since it was downloaded. Uploading a few minutes later would decrease your bonus, but I'm not sure by how much.
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PennyPincherP
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Re: Suggestion: download new WU before current one finishes

Post by PennyPincherP »

The delay would be about 2 minutes, miniscule compared to 72 hours for the WU. The 12-45+ minutes gained would increase production 1-2%. Not a lot but wasted opportunity none the less.
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Re: Suggestion: download new WU before current one finishes

Post by jrweiss »

Zagen30 wrote:
jrweiss wrote: It doesn't count for or against me for -bigadv bonuses, because I don't do -bigadv WUs. What is the issue with them?
AFAIK, the bonus points are awarded based on a continuous function of the time since it was downloaded. Uploading a few minutes later would decrease your bonus, but I'm not sure by how much.
In that case, it would only apply to the first WU after the client upgrade, because the subsequent WUs would start a few minutes/seconds earlier.
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Zagen30
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Re: Suggestion: download new WU before current one finishes

Post by Zagen30 »

jrweiss wrote:
Zagen30 wrote:
jrweiss wrote: It doesn't count for or against me for -bigadv bonuses, because I don't do -bigadv WUs. What is the issue with them?
AFAIK, the bonus points are awarded based on a continuous function of the time since it was downloaded. Uploading a few minutes later would decrease your bonus, but I'm not sure by how much.
In that case, it would only apply to the first WU after the client upgrade, because the subsequent WUs would start a few minutes/seconds earlier.
Carry the 2... oh, yeah, that's true. :oops:
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7im
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Re: Suggestion: download new WU before current one finishes

Post by 7im »

tear wrote:
Being a naysayer isn't very hard, is it, 7im?
Hijacking isn't hard either, eh tear? langouste?

I wasn't being a naysayer. I was informing people they hadn't thought through everything that was involved. Swapping upload order is NOT simple. Doable, probably. Simple, no. Just look at all the EULA breaking tricks you have to play with the client files to make this work with langouste. :twisted:
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Re: Suggestion: download new WU before current one finishes

Post by tear »

7im wrote:
tear wrote:
Being a naysayer isn't very hard, is it, 7im?
Hijacking isn't hard either, eh tear? langouste?
No comment here.
7im wrote:I wasn't being a naysayer. I was informing people they hadn't thought through everything that was involved. Swapping upload order is NOT simple. Doable, probably. Simple, no. Just look at all the EULA breaking tricks you have to play with the client files to make this work with langouste. :twisted:
Your arguments have little merit, I'm afraid.

It has been shown that asynchronous downloads and uploads are already part of the client (vide: autosend)
and have absolutely no effect on servers (hey, how could they possible do?). Yet, you refuse to accept that. Why?

Also, these tricks are there NOT TO break EULA (IOW, langouste does not break it).
Perhaps you're trying to convey some other message here?

FAH client is a relatively simple piece of software engineering -- if I wanted to break the EULA I would have (and solution would have been waaaaaay simpler).


Cheers!
tear
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7im
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Re: Suggestion: download new WU before current one finishes

Post by 7im »

I can't prove a negative, but maybe you would like to theorize as to why Stanford hasn't made your "simple" change and taken advantage of more processing time?
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Anglik666
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Re: Suggestion: download new WU before current one finishes

Post by Anglik666 »

why Stanford hasn't made your "simple" change and taken advantage of more processing time?
7im, do you really think that Stanford have the best programmers in the world, and all of them are geniuses ? Do You really think If Stanford don't have this idea it just doesn't exist ?
IMO it doesn't look like. I'd like to remember You that some versions of Windows have been beta shorter then SMP client. :)
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Re: Suggestion: download new WU before current one finishes

Post by John Naylor »

Think of the SMP client as the Pande Group's Windows Vista, and hope SMP2 is their Win7 ;)
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tear
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Re: Suggestion: download new WU before current one finishes

Post by tear »

7im wrote:I can't prove a negative, but maybe you would like to theorize as to why Stanford hasn't made your "simple" change and taken advantage of more processing time?
No, not really.

Reason: it would get us nowhere. We could spend days theorizing on why things
are the way they are or how they could (or why couldn't) be improved.
How would that affect discussed issue? It would not. Really. It's that simple.

Also, if PG guys had better communication skills (from my experience Adam
is the only responsive person) we could have just asked them. But hey. Things
are the way they are and I don't intend to spend time on speculations or
emphasizing to PG importance of communication with community.

I take more pleasure in coding -- it gives results. Discussing non-solutions
in the forum does not.


HTH,
tear
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7im
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Re: Suggestion: download new WU before current one finishes

Post by 7im »

You didn't hesitate to theorizing about my intentions or my understanding of the complexities of the project...

So maybe your decision to not continue to theorize is best applied to both topics. ;)
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Re: Suggestion: download new WU before current one finishes

Post by tear »

7im,

I am yet to see your opinion that is not in favor of status quo :-)


tear
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