Folding Forum

kiore wrote:Although I think it is possible that new builders may shy away from committing to new multi cpu dedicated rigs for BA I am not certain that all who have current capable ones will retire them so easily

Though it may certainly alter allocation: that is, a BA rig does awesomely in the several protein BOINC projects as well, and it's looking like it'll be far more efficient points-wise (and thus, we are told, science-wise) to run my rig with a GPU on f@h and move my 4p to BOINC. There's nothing wrong with that, as we're all still helping scientific progress. F@H isn't the only DC project, and it makes sense to allocate our resources where it'll make the most impact (and points are how these projects help us determine that). Makes sense
Like 7im said, philanthropy continues! (maybe just not in the exact same distribution)

Really,

Just because a client is less efficient than another it will be dead. Isn't that a rather large overly dramatic statement. Something is always less efficient but that did not make them go away. There are still uniprocessor clients running on P4's. There have always been lots GPU clients and they have never been even close to efficient on the PPD/W scale till the recent p8057. PS3's are now dead only because the servers were shut down not because they were efficient or not and lots of PS3 users are angry because of it.

The fact is that HW and software changes often and when they do the optimum HW changes. It is a very rapidly moving target that optimum. That does not make the old optimum dead it just means that people will then make different choices when change comes. Know that regardless of what choice one makes there will be more change in the future and whatever choice you make it will be less than optimum at some future time.

I do not think it is overly dramatic at all. I know if things remain the same mine will be going down along with many others I know of personally, they will be switching to GPU farms the carrot will be followed in a competitive world that is what the point system is all about. You have to remember that most of your 4P folders are competitive offer them a greater incentive in another platform that is where they will end up. I do not see any of the MP folders griping what I do see is MP folders talking about changing and cost savings.

fulltime folders may make new choices. That does not kill the clients and that is why it is overly dramatic. There will still be 4p folders and there will still be smp folders. What you are describing as dead is normal change. There may be fewer but that does not mean they totally go away. Unlike PS3 (Now that's dead).

decali wrote:...

Like 7im said, philanthropy continues! (maybe just not in the exact same distribution)

If you're not going to shut down the 4P rig, there's no need to move it to a different project.

I guess it is what you call dead there are only a couple hundred 4P rigs at the most more like 100 or less, how about bigadv will be relativity dead from a donor standpoint.

I think you need to divorce discussions of bigadv from regular SMP. I agree that bigadv will likely be hit hard in terms of percentage of machines running, since it's pretty much only extreme enthusiasts who are building them. They tend to be the PPD and PPD/W chasers and will switch to the latest and greatest contribution avenue pretty quickly. I don't know how many bigadv boxes would need to still be running for it to remain feasible.

There are a couple of orders of magnitude more regular SMP folders, though, and I don't think they will shift nearly as rapidly. Many of them may not have the money to upgrade all that often or may not be enthusiastic enough to go buy hardware just for F@h. Looking at [H] alone, there appear to be a couple dozen donors running bigadv, while there are hundreds on your team who appear to be running non-bigadv SMP in some capacity. Some of those are likely running GPUs as well, and maybe they decide that GPU with QRB alone is a better use of their money than SMP+GPU, but I think a large portion of your team will still be running SMP in a year because that's what they're capable and/or willing to contribute.

There are a couple of orders of magnitude more regular SMP folders, though, and I don't think they will shift nearly as rapidly.

Au contraire. If one has "project-preferred" GPU (and they give number of _times_
better performance per Watt compared to SMP), he is more likely to shut SMP off.
If rewards stay in the form that's currently being evaluated, I'm expecting most
movement (migration to _exclusive_ GPU configurations) to happen in SMP area.

BA folders will possibly continue to fold but I wouldn't count on new donors popping up.

I seem to recall a number of "The sky is falling, the sky is falling" discussions in past years when Stanford was considering a change, or, like this one, when a change was being tested. The discussions all proceed pretty much like this one has and about the second or third page somebody mentions BOINC and the following couple of pages typically degenerate into people threatening to leave FAH. Some do leave and others upgrade their systems and still others just keep folding with what they have.

I refuse to make a prediction about what the final outcome will be, nor will I take sides with any of the ways different people are leaning -- except maybe Mark Twain, himself.

Thanks to everyone for your inputs thus far and thanks for keeping the discussion civil.

bruce wrote:Thanks to everyone for your inputs thus far and thanks for keeping the discussion civil.

Whew, when I saw bruce's post at the end here I thought the big hammer was coming out..

Things are definitely changing, I had half a 4P system in my cart at newegg when the P8057 was released. It is still in my cart. Now it looks like a 4P machine with GPUs will be the big dog. Of course that means supporting WINE which looks to be non-trivial. I have a use for a 2P machine so making it 4P was purely about Folding. Now thinking that a 2P with 4 fast PCIE slots may be the way to go..

On the other hand, maybe there is a 4P machine out there that needs a good home? Has any one stuffed a couple of GPUs in a H8QGIF 4P box?

It's interesting when the game changes..

rpmouton wrote:On the other hand, maybe there is a 4P machine out there that needs a good home? Has any one stuffed a couple of GPUs in a H8QGIF 4P box?

It's interesting when the game changes..

No they haven't because to make the GPU's work you need a very very expensive server version of windows that can run with 4 cpu sockets installed on the mobo.

The only other way would be to install several VM's and see if you can install windows onto a machine setup up with just 1 or 2 cpu' cores.

Best bang for buck at the moment for those still considering -bigadv is a intel 2p and a mobo that can take several gpu's. if BA ever goes back to windows you are set, if linux ever gets gpu folding you are really set - if (more likely) neither of those happen run 32 cores of SMP under v7 and stuff the case with as many gpu's as you can afford to run. Just in the process of doing this my self - Theorectical max PPD of this rig will be circa 2m PPD and more if anyone has found a way past the gpu limits in windows

I just built a new 4P rig in September and do not see this possible change with GPUs as any threat to that 4P investment. It will do Bigadv as long as FAH will send me the WUs to process. I have other rigs that are running standard SMP and GPUs too that can work these new GPU (QRB-tipped) WUs. It isn't an either/or situation for me, but one that opens up new possibilities. This GPU QRB thing is having a very positive effect upon Folders across many teams. It is breathing new Folding interest into people, increasing Folding activity and resurrecting Folding discussion that had gone somewhat limp. So, it is all good my Folding Bros and I say embrace the change while also using all the tools in your Folding bag!

I was about to pull the trigger on a 4 P rig myself here in the next week or two, so glad I didnt have to yet anyway... Just added video cards to the cart instead since I sold them all when bigadv came out...

I spat my dummy out when I found out about the GPU/QRB and sold one of my bigadv rigs, I have started folding on gpus again but its not the same as bigadv, horrible sounding things buzzing away its just not the same. GPUs may be the future but they are not a threat to bigadv yet as you may get a few beta 8057s but you get these aweful things called 7626s which take ages produce no points and make your display lag so much you cant use your computer. To be honest the points awarded by the 8057 are spot on really as the amount of power GPUs use it wouldn't realy be worth it otherwise. If bigadv does go then folding will never be the same again as these gpus are cheap and nasty really and its not the same as building a posh server that runs as smooth as silk. GPUs are nasty plastic things to play games on, consumer items, servers are built to last and be switched on 24/7 - ideal for folding, sexy too plus your server will be worth something in a couple of years when those nvidia cards will be worth £50 each on ebay. I think 8102s need to replace the 8101 units to give us posh server boys a leg up

Well I can not say that I disagree with you as far as GPU folding being cheap and boring compared to MP folding, but there is a great reward there as far as the amount of science being done and the reward being given for it compared to cost and electricity used for MP bigadv folding. For my annual budget for folding I will theoretically be able to double my production for approximately one quarter of the equipment cost and the same electrical cost. The 4P's will be shut down but not sold at least not right away, I believe the future will hold great things for the MP and GPU combinations each of my MP's have duel X16 slots so I will be ready to jump on that band wagon when and if it happens. All of the GPU's I am buying are direct compute capable and hopefully, will be supported if it does happen.

All of the GPU WU's are supposed to get the QRB implemented so you will not need to worry about the 76xx WU's too much longer, As far as electrical use goes they reall do not use that much compared to my 4P rigs I get 480K PPD on an 8101 and use 1100Watts to do it I can get 500k PPD with 2 - GTX 580's and use around 600Watts so the GPU is better than my 4P's by quite a bit almost twice as good and not very expensive or difficult to build and maintain.

Anyway it is going to be boring for a while but I believe more exciting times are coming in the not to distant future so just do whatever you feel is best for you but I would not be getting rid of that MP rig at this time.